Curse

Mireles · Aug 03, 2011, 03:46 PM // 15:46

I think the whole eliteism problem can be solved by looking at why people are so selective.... PvP is a reward focused format... and to get those rewards are based on wins... people don't want to take you if they have the slightest feeling you might screw them... just like in UWSC... its not about the fun of the format or participation... the focus is rewards.

If you want to draw more players in AND keep rewards... you need to reward something more common than wins... IE titles of repective pvp formats should be based on kills, caps, or whatever action u need to perform to win the format.. that way you can have players gain rank and you can still have your win based rewards such as strong boxes and HoM chests that are purley astetic in nature...

This wont completely stave off elietism but atleast you give players a means to rank up even if they are losing... there getting some credit for attempting to learn.

lursey · Aug 03, 2011, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

I think the whole eliteism problem can be solved by looking at why people are so selective.... PvP is a reward focused format... and to get those rewards are based on wins... people don't want to take you if they have the slightest feeling you might screw them... just like in UWSC... its not about the fun of the format or participation... the focus is rewards.

If you want to draw more players in AND keep rewards... you need to reward something more common than wins... IE titles of repective pvp formats should be based on kills, caps, or whatever action u need to perform to win the format.. that way you can have players gain rank and you can still have your win based rewards such as strong boxes and HoM chests that are purley astetic in nature...

This wont completely stave off elietism but atleast you give players a means to rank up even if they are losing... there getting some credit for attempting to learn.

faction in itself is quite rewarding...but people usually overlook, and there is nothing more..

Mireles · Aug 03, 2011, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

faction in itself is quite rewarding...but people usually overlook, and there is nothing more..

It is over looked because faction can't help you get into a pvp group.... and you only get significant amounts for wins. Maybe in guild wars 2 they will make a comprehensive pvp title based on something simular to balth faction... but its already to late for this in gw1...

Missing HB · Aug 03, 2011, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

You sound like buttonmashing in PvP is something that has not existed for five years.

Let's say old iway and bspike come nowhere close to actual triple derv or invoke spike... nowhere really....

Zero The Hero · Aug 03, 2011, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Well I've only pvped maybe just a handful of times in the 5+ years that I've been playing GW, and I didn't have good experiences,so I never went back,but what if we had like some kind of a practice mode within your guild/alliance in your Hall, kinda like the DANGER ROOM in X-Men where simulated elite gvg, RA etc.. you go up against, and you can set level or work your way up to certain level from training to Hell Mode, then after Training for awhile you can go try the real PvP. just an idea maybe stupid but I'm noob at PvP.

cataphract · Aug 03, 2011, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by akelarumi

The biggest problem in my opinion is that PvP and PvE doesn't need eachother and both formats are actually two different games.

The only solution would be to change both PvP and PvE in such a way that both have to work together.

And when they were tied together Americans were on their hind legs because Europe held the Favor almost exclusively.

Man I miss that QQ.

Wicked One · Aug 03, 2011, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Personally I don't think there is anything Anet can do to make PvP more enticing to either new or old players wanting to get back into PvP'ing.

I've given up doing high end PvP until GW2 comes out.

Like cataphract I miss the good old days sitting in TOA watching the QQ over who has 'favor' and getting excited when the Americans started to win lmao

Maria The Princess · Aug 03, 2011, 11:14 PM // 23:14

The only solution to remove elitism would be to remove the rank system, but its never going to happen at this stage, after people spend years building their ranks.

At this point the only way i see for a PVE player to join the a high end PvP format is:

1- make their own group of 8, steady and constant team of friends who are playing in the same time, all willing to do the transmision, learn and try again and again.

2- Somehow meet a PvP player that would be able to get them into a PvP guild. That player should have enough influence in the guild to actually persuade them to teach the new guy and accept him in the guild. The problem is that most people who are serious about PvP would not hang out in places where PVE or lower grade PvP players do

Another thing that could be done is Enable a personal title system, that would allow a player to type in his title "looking for PvP Guild" or "new PvP guild looking for player" , and perhaps get noticed by someone in the lower range PvP arenas. Example would be someone from a GVG guild who sees a player with such title in CA and sees him in action later. Make that title a different color one (to not mix up with people displaying ranks and diffrent titles)?

GW pvp community could benefit from a gank type arena i think. IMO a new format could be implimented, something like a hunters arena.

It could be a huge and complex map taken directly from PVE (like one of the maguma jungle maps maybe) or even 2 big maps merged together, and make it a ganking arena.

put in some pve mid-difficulty mobs with a chance for some epic EXCLUSIVE to that format stuff that could go for a title (like a weapon that can be dsplayed in HOM or some un-tradable between accounts exchange tickets for something) and make it so you go in with 3 people, and 8 teams of 3-4 go in per map. Also, no reward for afk! If your team didn't get any kills or drops from mobs you get 0.

The map should be big enough for the players to have to search for opponents (or your own team if you die) and allow only a small amount of deaths per team (like 3 death each person), and there could be a rotation of several maps.

It would not draw allot of resources, it would basically have the programming of the Factions arenas, but a much much bigger area that does draw all attention to 1 location, and allow more teams in. All the teams would be hostile to each other. It would also not require additional design, just take one of the huge maps in prophecies in a place where people don't go to anymore (Jungle?) and some random mob from the game that would fit the requirement.

I think it would add some new dynamics into the gameplay, maybe new strategies and some excitment. Perhaps it could also draw in the PVE crowd?

*lemming* · Aug 04, 2011, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria The Princess

The only solution to remove elitism would be to remove the rank system

I can't believe people actually still believe this.

Maria The Princess · Aug 04, 2011, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

I can't believe people actually still believe this.

I started playing when GW came out, 3 years solid, a year of poping in once a week, and 2 year solid break. Been back now for like, a week.

I still read the exact same shouts in HA, only the build names changed. Deny it all you want but its the reality, most PVE players with no rank are either auto turned down or dont even try because they know 90% of groups will not take them. Past experiences on both sides.

lursey · Aug 04, 2011, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wicked One

Personally I don't think there is anything Anet can do to make PvP more enticing to either new or old players wanting to get back into PvP'ing.

I've given up doing high end PvP until GW2 comes out.

Like cataphract I miss the good old days sitting in TOA watching the QQ over who has 'favor' and getting excited when the Americans started to win lmao

actually I feel gw2 will have something similar to what current gw would have..

the population and elitism...
you see any pvp games, will have elitism nature...even lol/hon/dota/wc3/sc2/sc/ whatsoever....

elitism is only a term that pve gives to pvp....

pvp themselves seldom give pvp a elitism, because they are already part of them.

and in gw2 pvp, wvww.... I heard it last for 2 weeks... it actually is an obstacle for player to join the game, if he does not have that 2 weeks to expends...as you know there must be someone willing stay there for 2 whole week, making them elite, and some may just meh play for 1 or 2 hours within the whole week...make them newbie type...... then the whole elite vs newbie will come out again

*lemming* · Aug 04, 2011, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria The Princess

I started playing when GW came out, 3 years solid, a year of poping in once a week, and 2 year solid break. Been back now for like, a week.

I still read the exact same shouts in HA, only the build names changed. Deny it all you want but its the reality, most PVE players with no rank are either auto turned down or dont even try because they know 90% of groups will not take them. Past experiences on both sides.

It's a symptom, not a cause.

Vezoth · Aug 04, 2011, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

reward is arbitrary to the solution, players don't necessary like the reward, strongbox is the example

even you get all people in the guild, there will still be the elitism problem....because I agree to the post someone suggested that everyone is an elite...

and I can firmly say that nobody will teach any new player how to play pvp.. because the teacher himself is not competitive enough.....there is no qualification required to be a teacher...

and how can you make pvp popular as pve.. they are so different that the gameplay of 2 extremes are so wide in gw.....

-Yes, elitism will be a problem to those trying to play WITH randoms who don't care about you, and if you have lots of friends or guildies to play with you don't need to play with elitism or around them. Elitism will always exist so what's your point?

-Are you being arrogant minded? Hell.. if I had lots of guildies or friends to play with I'd teach or explain how to do things to people so I would have more inner circle people to play with, with no problem and so would 1000's of others, it's better to play with people you know than random people, you should try to play other MMO's before you try to say something like that... It's 1000x easier to do things over voice chat then a chat box while in a event.

-They are, but giving PvE rewards in PvP would motivate them to play obviously, having really sweet armor sets rewarded to players for GvG Ladder rank would get lots of guilds and PvP players wanting to join in. Strongboxes are a crappy reward, the chances of getting rich off one is so slim to try for. Only good to SELL and therefore you might as well farm Ectos' eh? Bad reward honestly, that's only a bonus to people who want to actually PvP, it doesn't bring people to PvP lol.

Either way... I know how things work, I've played many MMORPG's and it's all about the structure and what there is to offer. As far as I can tell PvP dosn't offer PvE anything so those who play the game to PvE(pretty much what 99.9% of ppl do when they buy the game) probably won't get into PvP much when they love PvE.

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

I can't believe people actually still believe this.

It's true, it would make things more guild based and random. When you go to places like RA people are asking for rank titles just to get into a group, honestly it's ridicious. Titles are a bad mistake because most of the PvP places ease at the moment is playing with random groups because guilds are dead in general and so is most of the PvP population.

lursey · Aug 04, 2011, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vezoth

-Yes, elitism will be a problem to those trying to play WITH randoms who don't care about you, and if you have lots of friends or guildies to play with you don't need to play with elitism or around them. Elitism will always exist so what's your point?

-Are you being arrogant minded? Hell.. if I had lots of guildies or friends to play with I'd teach or explain how to do things to people so I would have more inner circle people to play with, with no problem and so would 1000's of others, it's better to play with people you know than random people, you should try to play other MMO's before you try to say something like that... It's 1000x easier to do things over voice chat then a chat box while in a event.

-They are, but giving PvE rewards in PvP would motivate them to play obviously, having really sweet armor sets rewarded to players for GvG Ladder rank would get lots of guilds and PvP players wanting to join in. Strongboxes are a crappy reward, the chances of getting rich off one is so slim to try for. Only good to SELL and therefore you might as well farm Ectos' eh? Bad reward honestly, that's only a bonus to people who want to actually PvP, it doesn't bring people to PvP lol.

Either way... I know how things work, I've played many MMORPG's and it's all about the structure and what there is to offer. As far as I can tell PvP dosn't offer PvE anything so those who play the game to PvE(pretty much what 99.9% of ppl do when they buy the game) probably won't get into PvP much when they love PvE.

there is no any kind of reward can be justified in pvp.. because how hard to get the reward is various upon what opponent you will face... it is not like you kill dhumm to get the scythe in pve that every time the difficuty is the same....

so when you put good armour set in pvp...someone will think wow .. it is easy to get that armour so I play pvp, and he will consider that is a good reward....and someone will never able to get the armour because every time they play pvp they get stomped, and will always consider that is a bad reward to get in pvp because is too hard..

so how do you say what reward is good or what reward is bad.....something you think is good, may be bad to other..

the reward in pvp is the pvp itself, that you can vs other.. not what any pve reward you can get...

and, if you have a lot of guildies and friends, you will teach them.. but there is not enough of "you" or someone like you making a lot of guildies and friends in gw.. to make pvp populated.....

urania · Aug 04, 2011, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

sometimes I feel that gladiator 4 is already enough to be in ca....you don't need to be a g12..but in ha you may need a g8-9 or a codex 4-5 as a min requirement...

you see, that's not true.
codex arena requires a much higher understanding of the game, of how skills interact between each other and how team builds synergize between each other. there is no pvx wiki to check for builds, and if you wish to be successful start on you cant wait until a meta forms and copy it and still lose to those who have been running the build for 20+ matches.

HA, on the other hand, requires far less game understanding as well as a far lower skill level, simply because there's more people to make up for one's mistakes. and because ha is MUCH more like pve than codex is (ganks, anything with aoe farming balls at altars).

so yes, ca does need a fairly exped player, so that can go up to g9+ (ex g8), while HA will easily be doable with someone that can follow orders properly and nuke ball-ups. what's more important about codex is you not only need to have a proper game understanding, but also need to be an all-rounded player, because playing your favourite profession (as the grand majority of players chooses to do) can often be a horrid decision it because the skills available are too horrible for that class to be considered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

however player just do not move on from this format due to the fact that they need to grind them...

so....encourage competitive plays in pve, + adding more pvp titles + reducing grinding in lower form of pvp to encourage player to move on to higher form pvp ... can be done easily by anet to make the higher form of pvp more populate perhaps?

as anet realised and will implement in gw2, competitive pvp will have everything unlocked start-on. little reason why not do the same for gw.

and all the elitism care bears around here...spare us the whine how pvp is filled with elitism. where there's a will there's a way. if there's little to no will, then there's only guru complaining left. most start from 0 (or at least thats how it usually went) and play their way up, not post-complain their way up.

and for the record, pve often has its share of 'elitists' (which is often even bigger than in pvp) and it is absolutely retarded how you're considered 'less' because you dont have this or that specific high end armor or weapon set, or because you aren't part of a high-end pve guild (read: despite having a good understanding of the game as well as your character, so despite being a good player) because of the above (and because you aren't buttbuddies with some of the members). i had a nice demonstration of that in lotro aka legion of total retards online.

lursey · Aug 04, 2011, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

you see, that's not true.
codex arena requires a much higher understanding of the game, of how skills interact between each other and how team builds synergize between each other. there is no pvx wiki to check for builds, and if you wish to be successful start on you cant wait until a meta forms and copy it and still lose to those who have been running the build for 20+ matches.

HA, on the other hand, requires far less game understanding as well as a far lower skill level, simply because there's more people to make up for one's mistakes. and because ha is MUCH more like pve than codex is (ganks, anything with aoe farming balls at altars).

so yes, ca does need a fairly exped player, so that can go up to g9+ (ex g8), while HA will easily be doable with someone that can follow orders properly and nuke ball-ups. what's more important about codex is you not only need to have a proper game understanding, but also need to be an all-rounded player, because playing your favourite profession (as the grand majority of players chooses to do) can often be a horrid decision it because the skills available are too horrible for that class to be considered.

as anet realised and will implement in gw2, competitive pvp will have everything unlocked start-on. little reason why not do the same for gw.

and all the elitism care bears around here...spare us the whine how pvp is filled with elitism. where there's a will there's a way. if there's little to no will, then there's only guru complaining left. most start from 0 (or at least thats how it usually went) and play their way up, not post-complain their way up.

and for the record, pve often has its share of 'elitists' (which is often even bigger than in pvp) and it is absolutely retarded how you're considered 'less' because you dont have this or that specific high end armor or weapon set, or because you aren't part of a high-end pve guild (read: despite having a good understanding of the game as well as your character, so despite being a good player) because of the above (and because you aren't buttbuddies with some of the members). i had a nice demonstration of that in lotro aka legion of total retards online.

Our difference is on what I think managing people is so much harder than managing skill bars.

and I feel ha is harder and required higher skill level than ca solely because you have to manage 8 players but disregarding the skill bars ,which mostly the current skill bars are based on meta, I think once the meta shift faster, and hopefully more fluxes affecting the meta, ha will always be more competitive than ca in all sense because there are 8 players.

if ha is tuned down back to like team arena 4v4.. obviously ca will be harder and required much higher level of skill...because the extra ability as a player to decide build is required more in ca...

you see that all the pve elitism is about managing people instead of the skill bar...because people is harder to be managed than the skill bar...especially in all those pve 8 players elite areas, or even the deep/urgoz, 12 players...it is not really so much on what you have to bring or what is on your skill bar.. but more on the players themselves, that they won't rage quit/ afk/ fooling around/not using useful skills in the middle of the game that can destroy all efforts.

Mireles · Aug 04, 2011, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

and all the elitism care bears around here...spare us the whine how pvp is filled with elitism. where there's a will there's a way. if there's little to no will, then there's only guru complaining left. most start from 0 (or at least thats how it usually went) and play their way up, not post-complain their way up.

and for the record, pve often has its share of 'elitists' (which is often even bigger than in pvp) and it is absolutely retarded how you're considered 'less' because you dont have this or that specific high end armor or weapon set, or because you aren't part of a high-end pve guild (read: despite having a good understanding of the game as well as your character, so despite being a good player) because of the above (and because you aren't buttbuddies with some of the members). i had a nice demonstration of that in lotro aka legion of total retards online.

I like how you basicly call people complaining about pvp elitism QQ-ers then turn around and QQ about pve elitests and how retarted they are... why is it ok for pvp because if you don't have the "will" get over it... and for pve its retarted to require such things....? Those people started at 0 and worked thier way up... whats the difference?

you can swap "pve" and "pvp" and replace "armor" and "weapon" with "rank" and "emote" in your statement and you have the opposing arguments point...

urania · Aug 04, 2011, 05:30 PM // 17:30

its not ok in either, but its at least understandable why one prefers exped to non exped players in pvp.

do I REALLY have to name the reasons for that again?

Mireles · Aug 04, 2011, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

its not ok in either, but its at least understandable why one prefers exped to non exped players in pvp.

do I REALLY have to name the reasons for that again?

nope, but from high end things like speed clears can use the same reasoning for discrimination as pvpers do.... that reason is that players don't want to lose efficency of earning rewards..... neither types of discrimination are very condusive to a healthy player population...

Pvp is more negitivly effected because it requires determiniates (rank) for all formats where player participation is required to earn those determiniates... So if you don't have rank you nobody will take you in to earn rank because you don't have the rank to determain your efficency.

The key difference with pve is that determiniates (armor, weapons, titles, stones) can be earned by means other than the discriminitory activity. Discrimination is equally as harsh on both sides but theres higher pve population because players have reasonable means to earn determinates outside of a discriminatory format. Which makes pve vastly more popular than most pvp formats.

After viewing suggestions on this fourm over the years... one should be able to conclude pvp titles are the direct cause of pvp inactivity. Removing titles all together is not a option given they been around for so long and it will upset people that have earned them... making them easier to get by rewarding something more common than wins.. like kills or completing pvp objectives... seens more feasable to me... even if a player is losing he is gaining rank WHILE learning, so he has something to show for his effort... not just perpetually stuck at r0 because he doesnt know a group willing to take him... an alternative would be to make a comprehensive pvp title... so that experiance from RA, CA, HA, and GvG can be used to determain experiance accross formats.

I realize that making titles related to kills and objectives would open it up to exploitation or create opinions that its to easy to earn... if thats the case you can always require wins for title points after X rank.

lursey · Aug 04, 2011, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

an alternative would be to make a comprehensive pvp title... so that experiance from RA, CA, HA, and GvG can be used to determain experiance accross formats.

I like this too... perhaps including jq/fa/ab with a lessor percentage...

so more player will be able to enjoy pvp more if they like title grinding..